First experience with a Marauder

[Masked Marauder]

Skeptic, your experience is not unusual or unlikely, sorry to say. The barrel is the issue.


MM

[Teryx]

I agree with MM that the barrel is the issue. I think nearly all the liability in this luck of the draw that is going on is with the barrel. There has been considerable focus on the muzzle and the choke, but I don't think that is the problem. I think it's the chamber. I also suspect that the current design is at least partly responsible for the pellet sensitivity we are seeing. To that end I have been working to design a new chamber profile for the Marauder. I had new tooling custom ground to my specs. It just arrived last week. I'm in the process now of gathering data on the "accurized' barrels. I'm very meticulous in such things so I'm not going to say anything until I know what I'm talking about. I'm looking at the possibility of cleaning up the existing chamber and also of removing it and cutting a new one. I'm looking at the crown profile and a few other aspects as well. My goal is to understand the failure mechanism(s) and produce a set of profiles that give predictable results. I may or may not accomplish that, but I do not believe in black magic. There are reasons why these things happen. Just because we are unable to understand them doesn't change the fact. I should have something in a week or so.

If I can find the recipe, I want to buy a gross of Crosman barrels and rework them for resale. Hopefully I can offer a drop in fix for a reasonable cost

Teryx

[Informed Skeptic]

Thanks to MM and Teryx.

I've been talking to the shop and reading as much as I can about everything Marauder. At first people seemed happy, while others became wary, about the now famous $24 shipped barrel. When Crosman decided to make their own barrels for this rifle, I doubt they would have been able to predict how terribly their flagship rifle would perform.

While it's also not news, sadly, that the Marauder is a crap shoot, I can't help but feel that Crosman may be hurting themselves, however significantly, with the one piece of the rifle that renders the rest of the package utterly useless. This has proven to be a boon for the machinists and engineers among us, but the person looking for an affordable PCP meets the harsh reality of poor quality control practices. I now go between being angry and disappointed to incredulous that Crosman hasn't directly addressed what is now the elephant in the room.

This is crazy. I am now apologizing to the shop for complaining. I'll apologize to those who apparently got "one of the good ones" when I say, for the record, that after two new Marauders and plenty of effort, this rifle is still the most ineffective and disappointing rifle I have ever had experience with.

I'm beginning to feel the urge to chime in on Marauder topics when I see them on other forums.

Caveat emptor.

[Teryx]

Well,
Skeptic I understand what you are saying, but consider this perspective. I think that our expectations about the accuracy of all these guns has become skewed. When A rifle that shoots 2" groups at 50 yards is considered useless I have to wonder. The vast majority of Crosman buyers are shooting rabbits in their garden patch and tin cans. They aren't pushing the guns to the limits that many of us are. That is the crowd that Crosman has traditionally targeted. I think it is very unfair to characterize the Marauder as unfit when it delivers the performance that it does for only $400, and offers the possibility of match grade performance for minimal work.

I think that much of the frustration and dissatisfaction that people like you justifiably feel is the result of exaggerated and selective "information" that has proliferated among the websites. I don't see the problem so much as with Crosman as with the forums. After all, Crosman is not the one claiming that these rifles can shoot at match levels. People are.

Now here is the really messed up part. Crosman has landed so close to a wrold class rifle that it is mind boggling to imagine that just a little more attention to detail could move them into a higher class of airgun than they probably ever imagined. It has fueled a huge "tuner" aftermarket, and I'd bet that 90% of the gains from "tuning" are from simply cleaning up the barrel! Most of that could be fixed with simple production changes that would add maybe a dollar or two to the cost of the rifle. I can tell you from personal experience though that bean counters always have the last say over engineers.

So to sum up, I think your frustration is justifed and understandable. I still think the Marauder is a great rifle, just not the super rifle that it has been portrayed. Some percentage of people have gotten those superb rifles which has confused the issue even more. I don't think 1" groups at 50 yards is at all a realistic expectation, but certainly some have seen that. I also think Crosman is missing the boat in a huge way by not addressing this head on. Frankly, it's ridiculous for someone like me to have to have to fix the issues with their barrels, when they could do the same thing for a fraction of the cost.

Teryx

[REARSPROCKET]

[JimC]

Well,
........I think that much of the frustration and dissatisfaction that people like you justifiably feel is the result of exaggerated and selective "information" that has proliferated among the websites. I don't see the problem so much as with Crosman as with the forums. After all, Crosman is not the one claiming that these rifles can shoot at match levels. People are..
Teryx

I think Teryx is spot on the money here. You are an experienced rifle shooter, how may times have you read "my rifle will shoot 1/4 inch groups all day at 100 yds". How I interpret this is "once in my life I got lucky and shot 3 rounds into a great group". There are no rifles and no shooters that I know of who can shoot 1/4 inch groups all day at 100 yds. One of the most telling things I have come across on reporting actual accuracy of rifles and shooters is on the Rimfire Central Forum under the .17HMR Topic with the thread name "17hmr 50yd Club". This is a little challenge where you shoot 2 groups back to back, either 4 shoots at 100 yds sub 1 inch, or 5 shoots at 50 yds sub .30 inch. This challenge has been running for 2 years, and as of today there are 9 people qualified in the 50yd club and 19 in the 100yd club. I can't guess how many people have tried this but it is a LOT. Reading the posts on the 17HMR rifles you would think that thousands would be qualified by now. When I saw this challenge a few months ago I figured it would be a piece of cake, WRONG! I won't comment on how many rounds I fired to make the 100 yd club, but I'm not sure I will ever make the 50 yd club.

My point is, most of what you read on the internet is either highly exaggerated or an untruth. When I purchased my MAC1 Marauder a couple of months ago I expected to shoot consistently 1/4in at 25yds and 1/2in at 50yds based upon what I had read. I have shot maybe 3 or 4 sub .25in groups at 20 yds and I don't think I have been under an inch at 50 yds (after thousands of rounds). Quite honestly I was disappointed, but the more I thought about it the more I realized that for under $500 that was pretty damn good shooting form an air rifle. The rifle is a joy to shoot and at 50yds it will make a killing head shot on anything I will be hunting.

Is it capable of more, I'm sure that is it. I haven't even contemplated self tuning yet which should yield positive results. I have never purchased a centerfire rifle that would shoot less than .5 MOA without a lot of work and load development. I don't know why I expected a $400 air rifle to do so. Like Teryx said don't blame Crossman, they make no claims about accuracy. If you are looking for the most accurate stock air rifle you can purchase I doubt that the Marauder would be in the top 10. I think it might be time for you to try a different air rifle. You might want to look at the AirArms 410, for the amount of money you will spend re-barreling and tuning the Marauder you can buy an AA410. I think it is becoming obvious that you have lost all confidence in Marauder and unless you can get it to shoot 1 hole at 50 yds you will be dissappointed with it. Hope you ultimately find something you are happy with.

Jim in Sacramento

[doctorvandermast]

I think I get it now. To gain satisfaction with your groups, just move closer to the target.

[REARSPROCKET]

[Masked Marauder]

Scott "hammered home" his points as per the video, very bold statements indeed.


MM

[Informed Skeptic]

Thanks Teryx and the rest.

I agree with Teryx to a point, but I have to argue that he offers a skewed opinion also. Expense is a relative term, of course, but by no means should expense be the determining factor of performance. By that argument how should one feel about a $25 barrel? And the definition of "match grade performance for minimal work" is very subjective. If I were an engineer with the tools, time, and motivation I'm sure that I too could eventually be satisfied with the Marauder. Or if I got lucky. Greg Davis may be an option, for an arguably affordable amount, and then I could expect what kind of performance? If the single biggest complaint, and definitely the most well known, is the barrel, then shouldn't Crosman address this? The shop I'm working with has made many phone calls to Crosman engineers and they wholeheartedly agree that the Marauder has problems.

Tin cans or "tree rats", I don't know of many hunters, backyard or otherwise, who would be confident of humane kills or repeatable accuracy past 30 yards with either of the two Marauders I shot. This brings the effective range of the Marauder to less than 30 yards, and while you can argue that Crosman is catering to this particular demographic, I don't know of anyone who could be comfortable with the performance that I saw. The Marauder is an entry level PCP and, for me, it's a false economy to spend twice as much on pellets just to hit what I'm aiming at rather than spend more on the rifle and score first shot hits. I just don't believe that something affordable to most can't have high expectations. Crosman deserves their reputation, right? Why can't Crosman be compared to other high end air gun manufacturers?

Jim in Sacramento;

Respectfully, just because you don't know me doesn't mean that I am an inexperienced shooter. I could rightfully say the same thing about you simply because I don't know you. I'm new here and new to the Marauder, but I am also a forum member on the 17HMR site, among many others, and have seen the 50 yard challenge you mentioned. Lets compare apples to apples here. In the last couple of months, I have shot Daystate, both the MCT and the .25 Ranger, an Edgun Matador, a BSA Super Ten, FX Royale and a Whisper with the smooth twist barrel, and last night a new AA S410 Xtra. I KNOW what accurate and consistent is. I HAVE shot ragged one hole groups at 50 yards with SOME of these rifles. Most of those rifles were topped with a Zeiss Conquest. The point is that I know the difference between how a $2000 rifle performs and how less expensive, but still high end, rifles perform. The one constant is NOT the dollar expense.

I also live in Sacramento, Jim, and I'll invite you to shoot where I shoot. A friend and I routinely shoot over a hundred yards there and I frequently shoot at ranges most don't even have access to. But I'm positive that just about everyone who shoots a rifle would love to see what an entire second of pellet flight looks, sounds, and feels like. I'd like to bring everyone here out to the ranch for true long range shooting. Some people might not get to shoot at less than 50 yards, and in certain parts of the country, 50 yards is not very far.

Jim, you say that you opted to buy the Marauder from a tuner, MAC1, instead of from Crosman, most likely for an additional cost. Why? Did you want to avoid the possibility of being in my position by hoping that Tim could "fix" the rifle before you got it? Did you want to avoid the 3-4 months of waiting if you sent the rifle to Mr. Davis? I tried two new rifles that were checked out, but not tuned, by professionals. But neither of them would be in your safe, I'm certain.

Please don't assume that I have been "brainwashed", or believe most of what I read. Do you believe that some people may lie about their group sizes? What about 50 yard challenges in shooting forums? Would you call me out if I outshot you on a different forum? If I can do better with a less expensive rifle, what does that mean? Is cost still relative? Are my expectations skewed?

I will say again that I think the Marauder has potential, as it comes from Crosman, and that I genuinely like the rifle. My first post spent quite a bit of time pointing out the positive qualities. I believe that the barrel is the hamstring of a rifle that could outshoot rifles that cost much more. But why replace the barrel just to keep everything else? Like you said, just buy AA. I always root for the underdog though, and I believe in voting with your money. I also believe that I can improve both my technique and the rifle by learning to shoot that rifle as it prefers to be handled. Accuracy can improve by merely developing a relationship with the rifle. Mechanically, the rifle is awesome. I sincerely want to keep it.

I can't view the videos yet, and I can't comment on REARSPROCKET's and Scott's account. If "dime sized groups at 50 yards" isn't a joke, or I'm missing something, it seems like Crosman does indeed foster the sentiment that the Marauder is capable of much more, in the right hands. Brainwashing aside, I'll host anyone in my area to a shoot and let them be the judge of why I feel the way that I do about this rifle.

Thanks again to Teryx and REARSPROCKET for the very useful and informative conversation. And I humbly apologize for offending Jim in his own house. Loyalty is nothing to be ashamed of, but we each arrive there by different means. I'd love to shoot with you Jim and see what the Marauder should do. As I'm not going to be a Marauder owner, I don't want anyone to think that I'm going to come here just to bait the regulars. I will be reading and learning as much as I can though, and I genuinely hope that the Marauder finally achieves it's potential. Soon.