Bottle facts

[Sidewinder]

Being new to the PCP world I've been going through a big learning curve. Been around high pressure things all my life as a user but rarely had to do any maint.

I got an SCBA brought to me by a friend. He's dropped it off but I haven't had time to pick it up so I haven't actually seen it. This bottle is small like the "guppy being sold with the standard Din valve I believe. Anyway, the date of mfg ins 1982. I know that this is well beyond the published life of the bottle but here's the deal. The bottle is one among several his business has that were NEVER filled and NEVER put into service. These bottles have simply sat on a shelf in a cabinet since 1982.

I know I'll never find anyone to fill the bottle but my intention is to purchase a shoebox in the next month or so. This way I do what I want. I can see no reason to NOT use this bottle. High pressure filling causes a degree of expansion and contraction in the vessel. A bottle that has had repeated fill over a period of years gets stressed and at some point unsafe. I understand that much. Useful life of such a device has been determined by those who set standards and these are always conservative and I understand that as well. I would not want to use or be involved with any HP stuff who's useful life has been expired after regular use. However, in this case I have a bottle that has never been filled. It is as new from the MFG.

My question is .... from anyone knowledgeable in this subject, can you think of ANY reason I should not be confident in using this bottle?

[SHOOTINIT]

it can be re-certified

[DR650]

I am not familiar with those bottles but if they are carbon fiber they might become brittle over time?? don't know this for a fact but it is possible why they have a set shelf life.
Just be safe. To have it blow up could kill you.

[PB_Matrix]

There was an effort by the US Navy to extend these type of tanks useful life from 15 to 30 years due to the extreme cost of replacement for damage control personnel on subs and ships. The testing involved the standard hydro test plus a second test using microphones to pick up sounds of the fibers expanding and cracking. Most tanks tested passed both tests after 15 years, but some did not pass the sound test. Anyway, the Navy abandoned the sound test and is buying the SCI 30 year tanks instead. Seen here: http://www.scifireandsafety.com/products/30year.asp

So, you using a 32+ year old tank is asking for trouble, even though it has never been pressure tested to 7500 psi three or four times since it was born. Plus, filling that tank and transporting it in a vehicle is breaking federal DOT laws.

So, send it to me for the cost of postage and I'll take of destroying it properly for you.

[RayK]

So, send it to me for the cost of postage and I'll take of destroying it properly for you.

No send it to me and I'll "destroy" it.

I'd use them. You could be conservative and fill only to a peak of 4000 psi to give more of a safety margin.

I've heard that in some European countries, the SCBA tanks don't expire, but they re-hydro test every 5 years, but I have not read any official ruling on this.

How you use and care for your stuff greatly affects its life. Fluctuations in temperature and pressure are hard on materials. If they were never used and stored in a moderate temperature environment, I would think they should be fine.

Ray

[AlanMcD]

I don't know about this one . . . .

I am firmly in the camp that agrees that a tank that has been well cared for and is "good" on the last day of its official life is not suddenly "bad" on its first day after it. A well cared for tank should be good to use with a Shoebox for a period of time after it expires and nobody else will fill it, and I don't doubt that I will probably be doing that myself with my tank in another year or so. The question is always "for how long?" Eventually you will want to replace it.

The weak link in these tanks is not the aluminum or carbon fiber, it is the epoxy which is there to keep the carbon fiber in place. If stored in the dark with no exposure to UV or ozone it will probably be in good condition, but who knows. At a minimum, I would run a search on the DOT number to make sure there were no issues with this particular tank. This tank is 32 years old - that is more than twice it's rated life.

While it is probably fine to use at home for a while, you are still left to ask "for how long?" True, it has not had any cycling of fills, but the epoxy is not worn out much by that - it is more about age and environmental factors. If you have a valve and fill hose to use with it, maybe it is worth starting with it, but if not then you have to ask yourself if it is worth even messing with it - if you need the fill system, I would suggest contacting Joe Brancato and getting his "bundled" deal on the Shoebox and the brand new guppy with fill hose. You will save money over buying a new Guppy in another year or so, and have all that peace of mind too.

If I were in your situation, I think I woudl go for a new one because I would NEVER consider taking this old one to a range or someone else's property. If an accident happens while using a tank that is more than twice it's rated life (and thus would even be deemed expired even in Europe), at a minimum the owner would be at risk for a huge liability judgements, and possibly even criminal negligence.

[Sidewinder]

Thanks for the input from everyone. I have the bottle now and It will not suit my purpose at this time. It is a 3,000 PSI bottle.

It is a MSA steel bottle so there's no carbon fiber issue. Bottle would likely be okay for something else.

Regarding the life of SCBA bottles I watched a video the other day done by a fellow who works with HP equipment including bottles and such. He had been in contact with specialist at Scott on the issue of useful life of these bottles. What he determined was 15 years is the useful "Firefighting" life as determined by the company and various entities. This means not to be used in the high heat and stress put on such equipment in firefighting situations. As far as actual useful LIFE of the bottles in various other uses they had no opinion as the bottles are mfg with the intent of being used in firefighting. In other words as long as the bottles test okay in hydrostatic testing there should be no reason to simply destroy or toss away a bottle on the last day of 15 years after mfg. I could find no law or regulation which states that these SCBA bottles could NOT be used or anything like that providing there is a successful hydrostatic check made every five years.

I realize that if one has a bottle past its 15 year life that it will be difficult to find any "filling station" who will fill the bottle for you. It may even be a problem to find someone to do the hydro test and certify it. That said ..... I see no real reason, legal or other to disregard one of the bottles for airgunning simply because it is past 15 years old. There are plenty for sale on e-bay and plenty at auction from government entities like city fire departments etc. If the bottles were somehow "illegal" I would think these government sources would not be auctioning them to the public. It appears that the 15 "life" is a number which was determined as a date to be replaced by fire departments in fire fighting situations and has little to do with the actual physical useful life of the bottle. Like most things, once something like this is "tagged" with some "official" number there are those (most) who would simply figure that's it, it's over, bottle no good. I don't think this is the case. Of course, I'm open to any further physical evidence that a bottle become unsafe on it's 15th year.

I'm looking at some auction sites now with these bottles being sold in lots of 12, 30, 60 90 etc from various cities. The Mfg dates vary and some are past the 15 years and some have years remaining. They sell very cheaply and I'm sure that what's happening is people buy them on the cheap at auction and resell them on e-bay at a much higher price. The more time left to the 15 year mark the higher the price. This makes sense because buyers are naturally more comfortable with a bottle that's still in date rather than one that's past the 1 year mark.

I have a nitrogen bottle that I know is well over 20 years old and the supplier said if it's out of date just bring it in and they would swap it out for something like $50. I own the bottle (not a rental) so what they will do is simply do a hydro test, re certify the bottle and put it back into service. OR NOT .... I don't know. But, I think this is the case.

Twice in my life I've seen the result of exploding HP bottles. I ain't a pretty result. No one loves me as much as I do and I am certainly not interested in departing this life for the hereafter due to my new hobby, but; I see no logic (for me) in spending $7-800 ducks for an air source. The problem I see in using older bottles is going to be in finding someone that will do a hydro test. I see no reason why a bottle can't be tested and certified as "not to be used as a breathing apparatus" or something like that. obsolescence, keeps the economy going. I get it. But just as a coffee cup is designed to drink coffee from doesn't mean I can't drink water or milk from it safely.

I'm sure that there are many of you who have been in this sport/hobby for many years. As well, I'm sure many of you have gone through this "bottle deal Ad nauseam so, thanks with your patience with a new comer trying to make some sense of all this. Right now I'm inclined to purchase a bottle off e-bay and make up my own system. I think that can be done for under $250.

[AlanMcD]

Used and a "Joe B" fill system is what I did - bought an SCBA tank with a 5 years left and a current hydro off the Yellow, and with Joe's fill system I was under $300 for a 66 cubic foot tank that I could fill at a dive shop - of course most of that cost was for the fill system, and that never expires. Now I also have a Shoebox, so I can what I want when it expires.

I do agree with pretty much everything you said - just note that you won't find a place to fill or hydo a CF tank that is over 15 years old, so you are on your own filling from your own pump after that point. As I said, that is what I will probably do with mine for a while after it expires, but there will come a point where I will want a newer one to take with me to other places - I will probably pick up another one with some life left in it then to meet that need.

There is no law against owning and filling "expired" tanks yourself, but there is a law against a business like a dive shop filling them for you . . . .

[Sidewinder]

Alan, that's sort of the way I'm leaning as I have been to Joe's site about a million times in the last week or so. Been spending $$ like a drunken sailor on this and another little "project' lately and getting to the point that I just have to slow down the cash drain if you know what I mean.

What's "the yellow"?

I do intend to get some kind of pump, shoe box etc but that's going to have to wait a bit. Likely to try and find a bottle with a little life left so I can do exactly as you did and get it a hydo cert and fill locally somewhere. I don't see any angst about filling my own bottle especially if I have had it a while and know it's recent history. Even if I buy a bottle with some life left I would like to do the hydro test after 15 years for peace of mind. Don't know why someone would't test a bottle because it's 15 years and 2 months old. Just doesn't register in my head. I mean, if a shop is certified to do hydro test that means that the facility has adequate precautions in the event of failure. After all, that's the purpose of testing. Determine if the bottle will fail. If it fails the hydo test ... it fails and is disposed of. If it passes it should be okay to fill to a lower than "Max" pressure. I would think a user filling to 3500 or 4K would be fine.

[AlanMcD]

Sidewinder,

"The Yellow" is the Yellow airgun forum and they have a classified sales forum too. There are multiple forums that are run there, and I find it to be a well moderated place with lots of good people and information, much like here. You have to register there to, and they strictly enforce their rules so do read them. The main forum is at http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/ and the classifieds are at http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574 Do be warned that if you go there, you might end up expanding your interest in this new hobby into other more expensive realms . . .

The reason that shops won't fill or test a CF tank past 15 years is that they are governed by the DOT regulations and can't do so. If you know somebody at one, you could probably get them to run a test on a tank and verbally tell you how it does, but if you are not friends with them and have a clear understanding of what you want done up front they will drill a hole in it straight out to cover themselves (that is what they do to failed or expired tanks).

Now, while no test facility is likely to be willing to do a hydro on a CF tank in its last year of life, I have heard that most will do it if there is at least a year left on the tank. That would give me a good bit of peace of mind and I intend to try that with mine before I get to that point.