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[JSR]

A couple of days ago I took care of a Rogue ordered through a local airgun dealer here in Puerto Rico. Here is my experience...

Fit and Finish...

The Rogue is very well built. Truth is when I brought it to my shoulder it reminded me of my Diana’s TH56’s both in weight and feel. There is nothing loose, no rough edges, it’s just plain sturdy. The magazine clip feels ok but as you’ll see it’s quite flawed.

Airgun prep...

Cleaned the barrel with around 12 sets of 3 patches (it’s a big bore so had to pull three patches at the same time for scrubbing/reaching the barrel wall), First 3 sets came pretty dark progressively lightening till around set 10 to 12. Installed the two AA batteries and after activating the epic display noticed it had a bit over 400 psi in the tank. As I normally do with my other pcp’s, charged it to 3000 psi very slowly. Loosely installed a Leapers scope and left it alone till testing day at the range a couple of days later (yesterday). No leaks.

Testing the Rogue...

Set up target stands at 50, 75, and 100 yds. Programmed the rogue for 145 high being I had 3 boxes of Noslers for testing. It took around 6 rounds for sighting the scope at 50 yds. It looked promising but then the epic display started showing a message reading “critical halt very high psi – manually vent the tank”. Forgetting I had the manual buried in my shooting box (for looking up something about this particular message), I just refilled at 3000 psi and it started shooting again but kind of randomly, it would stop shooting and the same message keep popping up. I just keep refilling back to 3000 psi thinking the unit message was related “inversely” to the low side of the valve getting locked for some reason. Anyways and in retrospect just wasted 3 boxes of nosler’s trying to get it shooting right. I have 200 rounds of Dash Caliber .357 bullets cast for airguns but made all of the initial tests with the noslers for not introducing any stray variable during testing. After checking the rogue users’ manual error messages appendix, the suggested actions for the displayed message is to either manually vent the tank to depressurize below 3200 ((?) which wasn’t the case being it was never pressurized above 3000) or the dreaded “return to Crosman for analysis and repair”. I tried several epic combinations for the noslers: high, medium, and low settings but had the same results with the rogue epic displaying the same message most of the time after just a few shoots. Did notice that the tank as per the epic display never dropped below 1600psi at any given time. The only way of getting it shooting back was to refill to 3000 psi. At some point during testing it did let me take a couple of 10 or 11 shot strings but most of the time had to refill to “reset”. One of the strings chrony data follows:

(Nosler 145 – high or medium, can’t tell for sure but it was from a start fill of 3000 psi. Didn’t record ending pressure because of the error message popping up after shoot #11 and that point got distracted)

Count FPS

1- 762.56
2- 772.34
3- 762.32
4- 761.08
5- 749.04
6- 740.72
7- 735.37
8- 717.62
9- 707.23
10- 689.31
11- 672.68

Avg – 733.66

Grouping isn’t worth talking about especially being the valve/tank pressure sensor (or something else going on?) is giving bad info to the rest of the system. This will definitively have an effect on poi. Not to say I didn’t try grouping the best I could, but cant judge accuracy given these facts. At some point it grouped 3 or 4 shots at around 1.5” ctc @ 50 yds, but that was it. Most were quite far off. No testing done @ 75 or 100 yds given the circumstances. It didn’t occur to me to move my friend’s chrony to the lane I was shooting. This could have helped with gauging the effect of fps on poi sans error message. But in hindsight everyone is 20/20…

-photo PR Panamerican range airgun buddies, From right to left Ramon, Pedro and myself


-photo big bore airguns in test, Pedro's big bore and the Rogue


The magazine clip...

Ok, the magazine jams a lot and here I am showing why. Take a look at this Crosman mrod, prod, and rogue mag photo from the breech end. From left to right they are all crosman clips: mrod .22 with crosman pointed pellets, prod .22 with predator polymags, and finally the rogue .357 with nosler 145. You can start to see the problem: the rogue clip pellet is not centered for loading. Pellets in the rogue clip are being forced to load sideways:

- Photo 3 mag view


These are close-ups of the mrod and prod clips…

- photo close ups mrod1 and prod1


[img width=600 height=450]http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx43/jsrshaman/Airguns/Rogue/closeupprod1.jpg[/img]

…and this is a close-up of the rogue clip:

-photo close-up rogue clip1


This is how the rogue clip pellets look like when ready to be shoved down the breech. I have included for reference photos of pellets showing how the pellet sits at an angle inside the clip as it looks from both sides of the clip (the pellets at an angle outside of the clip to demonstrate how they sit inside the clip):

-photo close-up rogue clip2


-photo close-up rogue clip3


-photo close-up rogue clip4


You see as this gets worse when using flat nosed pellets (note: these are not Benjamin rogue flat nose rogue pellets but the ones I purchased from Dash Caliber which incidentally are top notch. Couldn’t get a hold of Benjamins rogue ones but for demonstrating the dynamics of what’s going on these do fine)

-photo close-up rogue clip5


-photo close-up rogue clip6


For reference look at the following pics. See how nice and tidy the mrod and prod clips hug the pellets and how loose they are in the rogue clip:

-photo close-up mrod2


-photo close-up prod2


-photo close-up rogue7


I think this is part of the problem. Take another look at the rogue full clip close up; particularly, the pellet in the bottom ready for chambering. Notice how it do sits mid hole although the plastic cover is offset. Not much of a problem being the bolt tip still aims at the center of the pellet and will push it forward, right? But still the pellet is being forced to angle inside the cavity and I believe is because of a feature of the clip rotor itself. Look at the close-up of one of the cavities of the clip rotor:

-photo close-up rogue8a


Please note the slanted lip in the rotor pellet dividing wall (all of the walls have it). Ok, look at this other pic and notice how the pellet ready to be chambered sits in the cavity. That small slanted lip which is now placed above it lets some pellets lean inside of the cavity at an angle making it more prone to jamming when chambered. It looks to me like this slant in the cavity walls is designed to facilitate passage of the bolt through the clip hole when chambering a pellet. It will not catch the top of the dividing wall because the slant will facilitate the bolt sliding through it. Problem is it is causing some pellets to offset at an angle in the chambering hole.

-photo close-up rogue9


-photo close-up rogue10a


Ok, to finalize I want to make a few observations which may prove useful to future customers of the rogue...

First, I was forced to manually feed the chamber of the rogue when the clip problem got kind of worse. I believe the rogue breach assembly can be modified to facilitate manual chambering by just machining the side of the breach a bit (in red):

-photo breach cavity 2a


Also, what about designing a predator polymag type pellet for this rifle? It looks to me that these nosler bullets need much more velocity for really expanding than what the rogue is producing. I addition the magazine clip can be made to accommodate probably one or two more pellets. There is just to much empty space around them and please, tell nosler to improve the quality control/manufacturing of their pellets/bullets. As you can see from the photos, there are quite a few distorted skirts and for their price Nosler should do better.

Second, there should be some form of feedback to let you know status of the system. A mechanical transducer (vibration device) can be fitted if not wanting to incorporate a audible type (for keeping stealthy). Yes, this will need a bit more juice but from what I see it shouldn’t be a problem making space for a couple of more batteries inside the unit.


Well... that’s my take. Luckily I purchased the Rogue through a local dealer and he has been super. I must also say the Puerto Rico Crosman distributor has also been quite accommodating given the circumstances. The local distributor brought 3 rogues of which mine was the second sold. The first one belonging to a fellow air gunner is doing fine and he has not had any problems so far with it. The dealer has requested from the distributor to exchange mine with the third one and I will be able to test it probably this next Wednesday but of course will need to buy at least a box of noslers just to test again (I hope they are not wasted this time but will initially run with the Dash Caliber lot). I still have high hopes for it; it is well built and indeed has potential, but of course if not accurate and reliable then will wait till it can fulfill its promise.


JSR:.

[NeuRon]

Very good troubleshooting, JSR! Anyone with a mag like that is going to have issues, I think. Way to to go in narrowing down the potential problem. As for the error message; who knows? Seems like it could be anything from an obstruction (not real likely, I know) to spotty electronics or a bad sensor.

And I've been thinking the same thing on the Nosler pellets. They look every bit like a Powerball polymer-tipped home-defense round for a handgun. Another new owner is experiencing the same lack of expansion from them. Your limited shot-string pretty well indicates the speed just isn't up to making them expand. Even the Polymags need some speed to expand properly. And isn't accuracy of pellets not ideal until around 850fps?

For expansion tests, I've not really seens Polymags show their true potential unless fired into an animal. Never does the ballistic-gel seem to make them spread like they do in even a squirrel. Hard targets don't seems to allow much at all. Just something to keep in mind when evaluating. Seems like water jugs filled with Jell-O would be a fair enough approximation of hitting hide and then the softer interior. It also seems like ballistic-gel should have a hide across the front to approximate that tougher, outer layer that initiates the expansion.

I agree with you 100% that a .357 Predator Polymag would be a nice option to have.

[sierra]

EXACT same issue I had with mine, you just put more details in your post, but everything you said could be added to my post.
*Critical Halt High PSI
*Mag would stick
-------
Too bad I got mine directly from crosman...

[JSR]

SAludos!

Sierra, are you still to hear back from Crosman?

JSR:.

[Supercharged86]

I'm no expert but I have a silly question. Why didn't they just design the magazine like the others (Mrods, Prod)? Why does the hole need to be one and half times the size of the pellet/slug? Is there something in the bolt design that wouldn't allow this? What a shame all that money. Cheers. Steve

[AirRifleHunter]

I'm no expert but I have a silly question. Why didn't they just design the magazine like the others (Mrods, Prod)? Why does the hole need to be one and half times the size of the pellet/slug? Is there something in the bolt design that wouldn't allow this? What a shame all that money. Cheers. Steve

That was exactly my thought too when I saw the photos of the clip/magazine. Why such a wide opening for the slug? It only needs to be just slightly larger than the slug/pellet to allow for ease of loading. Not that frikin' mess of a clip that they provided. To me it looks like that clip needs to go back to design and the design department or whomever thought that design was a good idea should be kicked and, or slapped and then made to fix the problem. What a shame indeed!

[sierra]

SAludos!
Sierra, are you still to hear back from Crosman?
JSR:.

I just got it back yesterday after about 4 weeks...
A bad Transducer causes the Critical Halt High PSI, replaced...they also replaced the o-rings, and updated the software.

Seems It may have a slow leak now...
*i'm not talking about the 50-150PSI drop 1 hour after filling from heat

I'll have to see how bad it is and see if it's worth sending back for another month!!

[pb95]

What kind of slow leak are you talking about? Mine is leaking about 350 psi per day. I thought about sending it back, but crosman said the valve is designed to let off 250 psi in a 24 hour period. I dont know if i believe that. My mrod valve sure doesnt do that. I really want it fixed but dont want to wait four weeks for it to come back, and deer season is right around the corner. Right now im very aggravated with crosman. These rogues are developing a bad reputation for leaks.

[sierra]

What kind of slow leak are you talking about? Mine is leaking about 350 psi per day. I thought about sending it back, but crosman said the valve is designed to let off 250 psi in a 24 hour period. I dont know if i believe that. My mrod valve sure doesnt do that. I really want it fixed but dont want to wait four weeks for it to come back, and deer season is right around the corner. Right now im very aggravated with crosman. These rogues are developing a bad reputation for leaks.

Guess mine is not so bad...it only leaks about 75-100PSI per day

I have to call BS on that too...who sales an airrifle that leaks air? If I bought a new car that leaked a gallon of gas per day, I sure as hell would return it.

I may just try for a refund, or just take the loss and sale it online.

[NeuRon]

I'd call Crosman and confirm that the valve is designed to leak that much air each day. If they do confirm, then ask for the reasoning, indicating that you'll hold in order to speak with someone who can give you the defintite answer. If that's the official reply being given, that it's part of the design, then there is ample information on file as to why this is so.

If it's designed to to leak, that certainly indicates that leaving pressure in it will result in damage to the gun, which could lead to injury of the consumer. What other reason is there? Additional wear and the desire for longevity out of certain parts is essentially saying the same thing; it's going to fail if you leave it pressurized.

That said, then your conclusion of it being a b.s. answer seems to be right on the money.

If the claim is that there is no essential reason for it to leak (it being a liablity issue, for example, in terms of having such a powerful airgun at-the-ready... ...but that's even a more shaky reason, IMO), the it's reasonable for you to want it NOT to leak. If they can't help you with the mechanical solution, I'd put pressure on them to give you the academic solution so that you can pursue it on your own. If you can or choose to pursue it is up to you... ...but it should help shed some light on the reason for the leak being incorporated into the design.